Category: Let's talk
While it's definitely possible, I doubt that I'm the only one. If so, were you always an atheist? did you grow up in a relatively atheistic/non-religious family? or, was/is your family religious?
i'm most definitly an aithioust. my family is somewhat religious, if you call it that. my parents believe in god, but don't go to church, i have an aunt and uncle who are born again christians, another aunt and uncle who are church goers, but not born again christians, so they're not as full on about their beliefs, and i have an aunt and uncle who are also aithiousts. so religin was forced on me as a child, until i stopped believing. my parents still wish i believed that there is a god, but i don't believe that anymore, and people who try and preach at me, are better off talking to a brick wall.
I'm more or less atheist, though I suppose it's more or les that I fall between agnostic and atheist. I don't really think there's a god, but I honestly don't care either way. All I'm concerned about is living life to the best I can, acording to my internal ... honor code I guess is the best way to put it, and making the world as good a place as I can in my own way.
I figure if there's a god, he/she/it can have a chat with me about it if they really want to.
I grew up in a pretty conservative Christian home, though I'd more or les decided I didn't believe what they did by around 13 if not earlier.
Short, sweet and to the point I think?
Definitely. If my memory serves me correctly, most ahteists/agnostics actually come from relatively religious families, which I've always found to be interesting. There doesn't seem to be too many of us on the zone, though.
I don’t think that there are any true atheist out there. For whatever the reason, humans have the ability to perceive the notion that there is a higher power, or a different power somewhere, and we have the capacity to interpret that ability through thought, praise, dance, and in general; religion. We can choose not to believe in religion, or in other words, we can choose not to develop that capacity, but it is innate, and part of every human and cannot be denied.
Before we conclude that there is no God, we first need some understanding of the meaning of God. I am sure we have all prayed, thought about God, felt like there perhaps might be something out there after all at some point in our lives.
So, even though I may say that there is not a god, I am not able to believe that statement in the same way that I can believe there is no Santa Claus, or Tooth Fairy, for example.
I do not believe in the Christian god, the mold for that god is too small and does not fit what I perceive to be my reality. But if I was born with this ability to sense that there might be, or might not be a God, there must me a reason for that ability to exist. I will not question the validity of the ability. Prayer does work, belief does work, and as everything, if one is well balanced in these things, there is no need to deny the existence of a god. Why bother doing so?
As for background, my family is not religious; I would say they are rather skeptical, with a good understanding of the bible.
I suspect, like many others, that they are not Catholic by faith, but by birth.
As for me, perhaps someone of the Christian faith would call me an atheist: I would not.
Having the ability to cognitively perceive of a higher power and actually subscribing to the belief that a god exists, I think, are two different concepts. I can conceivably conjure up many a concept--but believe in them I do not. To say that it is not possible for a person to be an atheist implies that you know more about their belief system than they do, and I don't think that that's necessarily a fair assumption to make (but some people just beg to have stuff assumed about them LOL).
agrees with the last post. i don't believe in god at all...i'd rather burn bibles than read them, and santa claws, easter bunny and the tooth farie, do not exist to me either. i kno they were just examples, but thoes 3 are just brain washing tools to get kids to believe in something, wich noone has ever seen, and are just your parents doing all that work for no other reason but to keep kids believing in something wich has a religious tie in to it somewhere. i'd rather believe in myself, and kno that i make my own destiney, not some book with a lot of volumes telling me what i can and can't think or believe.
“Having the ability to cognitively perceive of a higher power and actually subscribing to the belief that a god exists, I think, are two different concepts.”
I agree with the statement above, but I never said that cognition was equal to belief. Rather, what I am pointing out is that for some reason, we all understand what a higher power is, whether you are from a tribe which has been isolated from modernity or whether you are a group of urban atheists.
If the words Gods, spirits, or ghosts were heard, rarely would anyone need an explanation for what they are. They seem to be universal, and most if not all cultures recognize some force, outside of themselves which is not tangible through physical means alone. Not only do we all know these terms, but we feel them, even when we deny their existence.
Why burn a bible if there is no meaning attached to the gesture?
I would go as far to say that animals, plants, every being has this basic understanding, an understanding which is of course, at their own level of comprehension, not on the human level.
So we can say that we do not believe in god, as in a particular god, or a particular religion. We can even deny our predisposition to acknowledge its existence, but we, in my opinion cannot dispose of the notion of god, as we could dispose of the notion of the tooth fairy.
No one argues for the existence of the tooth fairy, to do so would be childish.
We can look at our religious beliefs and reach the same conclusion, Jesus being born of a virgin mother for example, but the idea of a force, which we cannot fully understand or reach, still exists will never leave our minds. It is carved into our brains.
I would argue that people can definitely dispose of the notion that a god exists. It is inate to realize that there are forces in this world that are beyond our control(gravity, temperature, etc.), but I don't think we would all tangentially come to the conclusion that a higher power exists. In fact, some of the world's religions do not believe in a higher power at all--and if some do believe in a god, it is a god of equal power to human beings--and doesn't necessarily have a hierarchical quality.
And I still stand with my initial point--it is dangerous to assume that you know more about an individual's beliefs than they do. Are you implying, through your comments, that people who identify as atheists are lying?
that's what i want to kno to. what gives you the right to automatically assume that you kno other people's beliefs better then they do? it's simple as this: i don't kno about anyone else, but i do not believe in any "higher power" or any sort of god at all, and noone is going to tell me that i'm wrong in believing what i believe. just because my family believes, does not mean that i have to, and quite honestly, i'm happier not believing in something that may or may not exist, and to me, he/she/it does not exist.
Okay Sure says "prayer does work! belief does work! How do you know that? Please be specific with real life references and no bible citations please. I am currently a "baby christian" and I was formerly an agnostic. But I am having trouble accepting the christian philosophy and I am noticing some hate preaching from some of the pastors in my church.
Skyla, again I will agree with you and state that assuming that one knows more about someone else’s beliefs then they do is dangerous. However, again, I think that there is a notion of believing in a god, higher power, spirits, ancestors, magic, witchcraft and what so ever we may want to classify under the category of religion, and a biological predisposition to process these belief systems. There are centers in our brain which have been mapped that deal with religious experience, trances, and prayer for example.
What I am saying is that although we may deny the existence of a god, biologically, we are structured to acknowledge that we are not alone.
When I wrote of prayer and faith working, I was speaking of health studies done which show that prayer, meditation, and faith have positive effects on people. Although, I will say that prayer studies are a bit sketchy.
As for a church leader communicating possible hate speech to his or her congregation, I am sorry to hear that. But, this does not mean that one needs to give up their faith. It is a part of who you are and it may help in your evolving as a well rounded individual. Perhaps this is not the church for you to follow, perhaps this is one of the many steps to take in the realization that faith, belief, prayer is more then a church, or a priest, or a recognized religion.
I wouldn't say that the ABILITY to perceive a higher power is innate, but rather the DESIRE for such a power to exist. I mean, how could we not wish that there was some meaning to our lives beyond what we might manage to impart on it? But wishing so doesn't make it so, and I think religion is simply an attempt to pretend that this desire is reality. I am very much an atheist because that is the only, or at least the best, inference that the relevant evidence allows us to draw.
Ok sure, I have to agree with you as to the sketchiness of prayer studies; I would actually argue the opposite though--and say that prayer does not work (and I mean work in the sense of actual prayers being answered). Of course, that's a really difficult subject to actually debate.
As for meditation having positive effects--I'd agree. But again, it doesn't at all imply that one necessarily believes in a higher power. I think it is natural for human beings to wonder about a higher power, but not at all inate for us to believe in one. I'm inclined to agree with mama goose's post.
I definitely agree with Skyla. It is definitely possible for a human being to simply not believe that a higher power exists. It is also possible, as in the case of agnostics, to simply not be able to know whether or not to believe in such a power.
Well, and as the realm of belief is so personal and subjective, I think that studying one's belief with the application of science/biology can only take you so far.
Prayer studies are subjective, and are not manipulated easily. Their sketchiness leaves me inconclusive as well.
If humans were simply wishing for a higher power to exist, there would not be the existence of religion in all sorts of societies spread around the world. Surely, we would have come across a group of people who did not have a religion based belief system. This is one of the reasons why I believe that our spiritual nature, even for those of us who claim not to have one, is innate.
Why must it be innate when it’s very possible that humans a long time ago found their own reasons for thinking a higher power into existence? I don’t see the importance in not finding a society that never believed in a higher power; there have always been atheists or non-believers. Maybe this that you call spiritual nature is really just a learned behavior that people found convenient when death or some other form of tragedy touched their lives. Religious awe or spirituality can very easily become part of any society, either by coercion or persuasion, just look at the many cults that have come and gone throughout the centuries; there were always plenty of willing believers gullible enough to follow along. How many priests or spiritual leaders have portrayed their gods as vengeful, wrathful, always playing a role in world events?
I don’t think it’s innate at all. Spirituality and religion for me personally is just another example of human beings using what is in their environment to their own advantage/benefit, e.g., we learn to write, to feed ourselves, all the time adapting to whatever presents itself. Don’t forget all the other similarities in human behavior; love, sex, working, all these things were learned no matter how far apart or distinct one society was from another. Not everybody acts out in the same fashion; polygamy, bestiality, crime. There is always a motive for what people do.
again, if religion was simply a social construct, we would have found societies which do not have a religion based belief system.
Language for example, is learned, and was thought up many years ago. However, our ability to interpret language is innate.
I am making a similar point with religion and am going further by saying that if we have this innate ability to process religion, there must be a purpose for it to exist.
I am not saying that there is a God; I am saying that it is pointless to negate its existence, since we are born with this ability to perceive it, and my suspicion is that this ability can only be suppressed.
Ok sure said:
again, if religion was simply a social construct, we would have found societies which do not have a religion based belief system.
There are societies that identify as atheistic, though. Sweden, for example, is comprised largely of identified atheists. And, the whole concept of what is truly "inate" is debatable; not all humans are alike, therefor to find a specific set of traits that are inate to all of humanity is impossible. The fact that people often use religion or spirituality to cope with life does not make the concept of god an inate one for all human beings. And, the bottom line, again, is that you are essentially trying to tell someone that they do not, in fact, believe what they believe. Which I find to be very presumptuous. Nevertheless, it seems as though we will not agree on this matter, and that's ok too.
We can believe that there is no god, in the same way we can believe there is a god, or that we can believe in Zeus, or Re, or an energy source flowing throughout the universe which binds us all to each other.
But, we are not able to make that idea of god, what so ever god means to the individual, disappear. The idea is and will remain there always.
What I am being presumptuous about is that we are born, with a god antenna, which may be tuned to what ever religion or belief justifies our perception of the world, atheistic or polytheistic.
It’s this presumption of a God antenna, which I am calling innate in all humans. Not whether they believe or disbelieve in a god.
As for the example of Sweden being atheistic, the information given can be debatable, as I’ve been looking at sweetish religion out of curiosity.
If we want to find proof of atheistic societies, in order to prove that this God Antenna does not exist, we must look at early societies and those societies which exist today, that have had little contact with the modern world and have kept their traditions somewhat intact.
I don’t think we will find any of such societies which are atheistic by nature.
If what you are saying is that human being seek meaning in life, that much I do agree on. whether that meaning is sought through beleif in a god, however, is what I don't think you and I agree on.
I don't think we are born believing in or knowing God. If no one ever taught a person about God, that person would not believe in God.
Let me first say I am very impressed by this board. It is one of the better ones I have read. For the most part people have discussed and accepted other thoughts and beliefs. However I personally have a couple three questions that I would truly like answered. Maybe you atheist and agnostics can answer them and maybe you can. they may be another total belief and you have not encountered them.
1. If there is no GOD or HIGHER POWER. Why when people get like a finger caught in a door. Why do they holler "OH GOD". the only thing I have heard is well its just an expression. would like to hear your take on it.
2. An atheist friend of mine died and after he past and they read his plans for his funeral he wanted a CATHOLIC priest to perform his burial because Just in case there was a God or a heaven the priest could pray them over into a spirit world.
3. Why is it when people and atheists alike when they get diagnosed with cancer do they suddenly start believing in a god or then exploring to see if there is a GOD. (i use cancer as an example mostly meant tragedy in general).
and please note I don't ask these things with sarcasm like some would. I ask in all fairness. I however Do personally believe in GOD and I also proclaim that I am an old sinner saved by grace.
1. It is merely an expression.
2. That is an interesting one. I am at an exploration point in my "faith journey" right now and I would also want such a funeral. I am open right now to all possibilities. I am not religious, but I am open to all possibilities and exploring all right now.
3. This exact type of incident is what has me exploring so fervently now. I.E. a relative who, in the face of tragedy, turned steadfastly to Jesus and claimed to be saved. Granted, the pressure from his entourage was heavy in this direction, but he did express interest and ask questions before this pressure became so fierce. So whether his salvation was born of his own thought process, of the heavy encouragement from those around him, or a mixture, we of course will never know.
Interesting topics nonetheless, and these are merely my opinions on them.
1. It is merely an expression that we have become familiar with. For instance, people who reside in other countries, when knocking a knee into a table, are not conditionned to holler out religious terms. That's simply conditionning and exposure.
2. Belief in a higher power "just in case" is what is known as Pascal's wager. The theory being that if there isn't a God and I don't believe in one, I'm ok. If there is one and I don't believe in one, I'm screwed. So, I might as well believe in one just to be on the safe side. Of course though, this approach is a very weak one, as the person doesn't necessarily subscribe to the belief of a God; rather, they are convincing themselves that believing might be in their own best interest. That's kind of like cheating the system, and for those who do believe in God, I suspect they'd say that a true God could see right through that type of phoney belief system.
3. In times of desperation, people often resort to just about anything--the human survival instinct is incredible, and when faced with impending death or disaster, there isn't much that we won't at least entertain if there's a hint of the possibility of it benifitting/saving us. Having said that, desperation causes people to react irrationally, and it doesn't at all mean that their fears/beleifs are "true". I hope that answers your questions.
Why do you feel there is no GOD.???
Oh wow, do you really want to go there?
Let’s take it there…
My answer to the question of why not believe in God is simple.
As I said above, my perception of reality does not fit the reality which is interpreted by the god I was first socially taught to understand.
My idea of a god, or of a divine energy, does not fit the Judeo-Christian mold of a god. Sure, there are other gods one could worship, but to me, god is just the intangible, tangible illusion we create to seek enlightenment, to find order in the chaos of existence, and have comfort through times of need.
Believing in God, to me , would belike believing that the only way to obtain the above is to box oneself, to be judgmental of others, to take the lesser mysteries of life as faith, and leave the greater mysteries of life unquestioned.
You asked for it. I don't beleive in God because the very concept imposes a limitation on human being and our ability to acquire knowledge about the world around us, and it requires us to believe without question. We owe our advancements in this world to those who have doubted, challenged; not to those who have simply blindly believed. Moreover, belief in God via a religion (for the most part) is simply a result of childhood endoctrination--had one been born in Japan or India, one would most likely just inherit their parents beliefs as well, so it calls to question the reason we believe in God in the first place. And ultimately, I cannot place blind faith in something that I simply cannot feel with either my physical or visceral senses.
Interesting subject. Me, personally, do believe in a God, but not in the way of how the church would have a person believe. I believe that Jesus was an actual person but he didn't die on the cross. I am also open to the idea that there may be a goddess side to God, but they are one. If that makes sense. I suppose one would say I lean towards the pagan way of belief. I just say I'm spiritual. That's the only word I can use for it. I don't attend church, I don't read the bible on a regular bases, I don't wear crosses, I just believe in what I believe. I'm usually quiet about what all I believe in. I live in the bible belt and most people do not share the same belief. You can get a major preaching at if you go shouting about there being a god and goddess, for example.
I can understand why people do not believe in God. Religion can be very confusing. I use to be very confused myself and worried about my soul when I was yunger. I don't worry anymore. I don't believe in a firey hell or devil. I think that is part of the mind control in the church. If you are a good decent person, then I think God can see that. It doesn't matter if you cuss like a sailor, listen to hard core metal or whatever.
I saw on the National Geographic once where they found the gospel of Magdalin. The bible betrays her as a whore, but she really wasn't at all. Basically she was a mouth piece for jesus. He shared certain things with her, and then she would go and tell the others of his teachings. Of course, because she was a woman we couldn't have a woman playing a major part in the forming of christianity. That's just how it was then. It's ashame they had to make her a repenting whore though.
Anyways, thanks for the post. Religion is such a touchy subject, but I like hearing what other people have to say about it though. People's opinions are so varied in the subject.
Doug's question asked if anyone can be certain that there is no god. We cannot. No one can fairly be 100 percent certain that there is, or is not, a god. You cannot physically see or feel a god, but that doesn't mean with 100 percent certainty that one does not exist. You may be 99% sure that it is created by man, but I don't think you can fairly step over that line into 100 percent certainty. You certainly can doubt almost everything in the Bible, or maybe even doubt or flatly disbelieve everything in the Bible. But you can't fairly btate with absolute certainty that there is nothing spiritual going on, just as religious people shouldn't state with 100 percent certainty that what they believe is true.
While I don't believe that we can entirely prove or disprove the existance of a God, I don't believe that that automatically puts its existance versus its non-existence on equal footing. For instance, I may believe that there's an invisible cow in the room, and you may not. That doesn't mean that there's a 50% chance of the cow's existance simply because you can't prove that it doesn't exist.
The invisible cow example is not good as it currently stands.
Everyone understands what the idea of a god or of gods is, whether they consider these gods to be visible or not. The existence of a god, therefore, could more likely be compared to an invisible cow in a room, which everyone can agree May or may not actually exist, and everyone has a different idea of what this “invisible” cow looks like. Some, even claiming to have seen it, or to be looking at it, while others claiming that they have felt it…
I will say, that the question which has never resulted in an answer which is satisfactory, is the following:
If there is a god, why must a god exist?
Any answers?
I think my cow example was definitely rellivant, as most people have seen a cow, and could therefor mentally contemplate the existance of an invisible one. And, as to the idea of a God being familiar to all human beings, so too is the concept that there are things that exist that we may not be able to tangibly detect. And, from what I understood of your post, it didn't contradict the "invisible cow" idea.
An interesting sidebar to this discussion came out yesterday in the news, saying that those who believe in God are typically less likely to be anxious people vs those who are atheists. This makes perfect sense to me. From a purely scientific perspective, it is very possible, some would say probable, that the feelings related to prayer, salvation, and the works of god in one's life may all be in that person's brain. They may say, cast your worries off on the Lord, etc. Feeling this way, feeling that there is something or someone taking care of you, would of course be comforting to religious folk. SWhy wouldn't it be? I am not dissing either atheists or Christians by saying this, but this was a line of reasoning I first read in January and it made perfect sense to me. It came from a former Christian, a former pastor if I remember correctly, when he suddenly realized that there was no strong reason to believe that the happiness that came supposedly from his religin could, theoretically, just be coming from fellowship and his own brain's reactions to the beliefs. He has shed his beliefs and become an atheist.
Belief in something simply because it causes you less anxiety may still be ultimately harmful, though. Relief of anxiety alone, in my opinion, is not a sufficient enough reason to believe in a higher power. Having said that, people who do truly have faith may in fact be more mentally at ease; however, this line of reasoning is a weak one in terms of potentially convincing someone to have faith. I'm also curious about the study. Which religions/dinominations were studied? how large was their sample size? were the religious people/atheists represented equally? and, who conducted/funded the study? all very important questions to take into consideration before judging the validity of the study.
I am not saying that is a ground for believing in a religion. For me, it was one of the things that helped me to turn away from religion. This euphoria is all in people's heads, or at least it very well could be, I reasoned.
In response to post 35, I was not attempting to contradict your post; I was trying to show that simply equating the belief in a god, to a belief in an invisible cow is incorrect, unless that invisible cow is recognized by all humans as being an invisible cow. It is not.
Those people, who have a strong religious belief, are, more likely to lead less stressful lives then those who are atheist. This is very interesting, as something to go along with these studies are the studies which claim that optimists are generally happier people, and when asked to assess their skill level at a particular activity, they are likely to give themselves a high score. Pessimists, however, often rate themselves lower, and are generally less peppy; also, they tend to be more accurate in predicting their skill level when presented with an activity, even when that skill level is low.
What does it all mean?
depressed people are right, delusional people are happy!
Hey "Ok Sure":
I am currently taking an introductory philosophy course in university, and believe me - while there are some philosophers who believe that some (or even all) of our knowledge is inate, others are at the opposite end of the spectrum and believe that the only knowledge we possess is realized through our sensory experiences (i.e. no such thing as inate knowledge). And there are many philosophers in the "middle" of this spectrum.
Knowledge and behaviour is further scrutinized in my psychology course, and believe me, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that human beings have biologically inate knowledge of anything; we are only biologically predisposed to fulfill our basic instincts, such as to breathe, eat, and reproduce.
So what I am telling you is, your belief that all of us share the same inate knowledge of a higher power and/or a religious leader is without any kind of scientific or psychological basis whatsoever, and is probably not very accurate because as many of us are expressing, we do not recognize any such knowledge within us--would it make sense for God to have "hidden" that knowledge within us somewhere where we could not recognize it? I think not.
Although I am prepared to accept that there may be intelligent life forms on other planets, I am an atheist because I do not believe in a higher, sentient power. And enough things make so little sense in our world - why millions of Jewish people died in a Holocaust, why so many good people live without basic needs such as food and water, why a religious leader would permit a criminal to murder innocent people - that I just simply think it unlikely that a God exists. I know most religious people would argue that, well, God is just giving us free will, but I think that argument is just covering up the truth.
Although I'm optimistic that the future of our world will improve, I think it will do so under the guidance of science, morality, and our intelligence--not under the guidance of a religious leader.
Cheers,
Grant
Hi Grantinator,
You wrote: “So what I am telling you is, your belief that all of us share the same innate knowledge of a higher power and/or a religious leader is without any kind
Of scientific or psychological basis…”
I did not make such a statement. I did say: “For whatever the reason, humans have the ability to perceive the notion that there is a higher
Power, or a different power somewhere, and we have the capacity to interpret that ability through thought, praise, dance, and in general; religion. We
Can choose not to believe in religion, or in other words, we can choose not to develop that capacity, but it is innate, and part of every human and cannot
Be denied.
“
You also said: “And enough things make so little sense in our world - why millions of Jewish people died in a Holocaust, why so many good people live without basic
needs such as food and water, why a religious leader would permit a criminal to murder innocent people - that I just simply think it unlikely that a God
exists. I know most religious people would argue that, well, God is just giving us free will, but I think that argument is just covering up the truth.
“ Why do you presume that your ability to understand the suffering in the world as being overwhelming, is somehow related to there being or not being a god? Are you saying that the god’s occupation is to make sure that humans are comfortable, that they do not suffer, and that no harm comes to them? Do you feel that human beings, if a god exists, are somehow to be excluded from nature, suffering, death, the cycle of life?
I still maintain that while we may be able to perceive of a concept, it doesn't at all mean that we subscribe to the belief of its existance. we've all heard of unicorns, and could probably conceive of one in our heads, but it doesn't tangentially imply that we believe unicorns to actually "exist" as we know it. Every culture has mythical tales of magical creatures and wondrous beings; that doesn't mean that we believe them to be true. I don't think anyone is saying that human beings are not capable of mentally conceiving of the concept of "God", but that belief in one's existance is not biologically inherrant. we may wonder if one exists or not, but we wonder many things. Through reasoning and personal exploration though, we are capable of ariving at our own conclusions. Now, I'll leave it to you and grant to debate what the role of god is.
to the last poster, very, very well said.
Hi "Ok sure":
"...but it is innate, and part of every human and cannot be denied."
But as I've just pointed out to you, that statement has no psychological or scientific basis whatsoever, and would even be refuted by many philosophers. I subscribe to the notion that most humans I've met have some thoughts in the world of "fantasy" or "mystery", but your statement is going a tad deeper than I think you will be able to prove.
"Do you feel that human beings, if a god exists, are somehow to be excluded from nature, suffering, death, the cycle of life?"
Certainly not from the cycle of life, but it seems to me that one of the reasons people retain faith in a God is the belief that by loving God with all your heart and mind, and by acting in a way that would please God, you will somehow be protected and your prayers will be answered. Read the book called Night by Elie Wiesel (it's available on Bookshare): you'll see that many people throughout the Holocaust started to question their own religious faith, because it really didn't do anything for them.
you'll see that many people throughout the Holocaust started to question their own religious faith,
because it really didn't do anything for them.
Skyla, you said the following:
“Every culture has mythical tales of magical creatures and wondrous beings; that doesn't mean that we believe them to be true.”
You’re right, in no way does it mean that we believe these beings to be true, however, if every culture has tales of such beings, wouldn’t one say that since every culture has tales of such creatures, there must be a reason why humans in every culture, have such similar tales in common?
Would you say that it was a coincidence that such tales exist in every culture?
Now, is it a coincidence that humans, in all societies, have an understanding of the concept of external or external forces, whether they are called gods, ancestral spirits, and demons? Not all cultures might acknowledge these forces to be real, and not all cultures carry on a belief in them, but we all understand the concept.
So, Are we as humans just coincidentally very imaginative, and have come up with the idea of god in order to cope with our reality in every culture throughout time, or, is it an innate capacity that we, as humans all have?
Grantinator, you have stated:
“You’ll see that many people throughout the Holocaust started to question their own religious faith,
Because it really didn't do anything for them.”
Does this mean that you believe the role of God, is the role of a father, a guide, a protector? This is what you seem to be saying. Remember, this is only one way to think of god. There are many different cultures which have a completely different perspective of what role a god plays in a human’s life. Suffering, Pain, is a part of life. What you are saying is that if one believes in god, then god should keep suffering from one’s life.
In short, you believe in a god because you will be rewarded for doing so. If you are not rewarded, you leave your beliefs behind?
"So, Are we as humans just coincidentally very imaginative, and have come up with the idea of god in order to cope with our reality in every culture throughout
time, or, is it an innate capacity that we, as humans all have?"
Humans are *extremely* imaginative, and constantly seek solutions to their problems, and answers to burning questions. Though I can't, of course, explain why nearly every culture in past centuries imagined the existence of a supreme being, there are many plausible explanations for this. For example, in nearly any community of animals, humans or not, there is a hierarchy of power. It might be a leader among a tribe of people, or it might simply be an animal's rank in the food chain. I don't think it is much of a stretch to come up with the idea that since the leader of your "tribe" is not all-powerful, there must be a higher-ranking power, somewhere. Since humans did not possess the same scientific knowledge that we do today, I imagine that through theories such as the one I have just described, along with dreams and imagination, they exaggerated the desireable qualities of a human being (perfect morals, all-powerful, immortal) and determined that there must be a supreme "God" in this capacity.
Also, people who, today, are regarded as psychologically abnormal (i.e. who hear voices, see things that no one else sees, etc.) were once reveered and were seen as having been in communication with a God, or who possessed some kind of superior power. I'm learning all about this in psychology; it's fascinating. If such a person were conversing or leading an impressed tribe of early humans, I don't see why that person's beliefs wouldn't simply be integrated into that tribe's culture.
These are just a few alternate explanations - I have no idea what the "truth" is, really - but be careful about assembling an argument like "religion was a part of all human cultures, so it must be innate, so it must exist", without considering alternative explanations.
"In short, you believe in a god because you will be rewarded for doing so. If you are not rewarded, you leave your beliefs behind?"
As I've stated I actually *don't* believe in a God, but yes, I believe the reason many humans still believe in a God is because it offers them "faith", and peace, and happiness, and yes, even protection and the ability to have prayers answered. As we know, though, things don't always work out in this way.
Cheers,
Grant
Grantinator, you paraphrased me as stating:
"Religion was a part of all human cultures, so it must be innate, so it must exist."
Perhaps I did not make myself clear, but I certainly did not make any such statement.
You also said:
“I don't think it is much of a stretch to come up with the idea that since the leader of your "tribe" is not all-powerful, there
Must be a higher-ranking power, somewhere.”
You also mention an exaggeration of desirable human qualities like perfect morals and immortality. Again, this is a very Judeo-Christian perception of god. Most other religions, (pick one at random) do not have all powerful perfect father-like perceptions of gods.
As for those individuals who are considered abnormal today, who long ago might have been considered to be holy because of their claim to communicate with gods: remember; in the past, these individuals were mostly just called crazy, and very seldom revered by others as holy.
If a concept is common in all societies, it doesn't at all imply that it is real. The fact that many people may wonder about something does not make what they are wondering about "true". The fact that virtually all cultures around the world have folktales and myths does not mean that God exists, it means that humans have fantastic imaginations. Most children, across many cultures, have imaginary friends. This doesn't give creedance to the actual existance of these friends.
You're right, children all over the world having imaginary friends, does not give credence to the existence of these imaginary friends.
It does however, give credence to the idea that the capacity to create these imaginary friends, is innate in humans.
Although I'm sure most of the above posts are an interesting intellectual exercise, I kind of want to respond to the original post. I identify as agnostic, and, well, it's just how I turned out. I know there are some people who think an agnostic is justan atheist who is scared to take a stand, but really, who really gives a damn waht other people think, right? Hahahaha! I suppose my family were culturally Christian, but we were never really good at sticking to doing things like saying grace at meals or going to church. I tried going to church with a neighbor, probably more as a way to be social in a town where I was probably the only blind kid/person than anything else. But a lot of it just didn't seem to compute to me. Maybe I was missing out on some emotional connection with all things spiritual/supernatural/heavenly, I don't know. That lasted for a couple of years. Much later on I started hanging out with and getting to know some folks who identified as pagan. Those are some pretty cool folks, but again, the whole religious aspect just didn't connect with me. So I decided I'm agnostic because I just don't know whether there really absolutely is or absolutely isn't something we like to call a god. I think in the end I'd make a pretty sucky Christian anyhow because my god is much too nice. No fire and brimstone, no eternal punishment and torture in the alleged afterlife for reading Harry Potter books or frequenting businesses that do not conform to Christian ideals and the like. Mankind just loves to take something simple and ruin it just to further its own political ends and bloodlust and need to persecute somebody, anybody.
Yes, having an imagination is inherrant to humanity. This does not mean that being an atheist is impossible. And godzilla-on-toast, thanks for sharing your experiences.
Maybe the reason we keep coming back to the concept of God being a father figure is because when most people speak of God, the first thing that comes to mind is the christian God. Since no other religions have been mentioned, this is a relevant assumption to make, as Christianity is the world's most predominant religion,.
I definitely think that belief in religion is inherited. If we did not talk to children about God, if we didn't put that idea in their head, they wouldn't know about him, right? the same goes with other religious concepts, not just the Christian God. If a child is brought up to believe there is no God, they're more likely to believe that also. Parental influence is a huge determining factor to how a person thinks, feels and believes about certain issues.
I consider myself an agnostic, because no one really knows for sure if any form of higher power exists or not. While it may not be typical, the concept of faith shouldn't be attached to any God, as that leaves you open to blind faith and following something that isn't true, which can lead to brainwashing, and that's never a good thing. It's best to keep an open mind until you're presented with clear evidence, and in cases such as religion and faith where we're not ever going to get a straightforward answer, no one is really right or wrong as long as they're not attacking others' opposing beliefs, and as long as they're not hurting anyone.
Personally I find it especially hard to believe in the Christian God because the Bible repeatedly preaches love and acceptance of everyone, but only if they're acceptable in God's eyes. I don't think anyone should have the right to condemn anyone, and the problem I have with most Christians is that they think they're always right and can say who is and is not going to hell. When it comes to groups of people, like homosexuals and people of different races, that is completely unacceptable. We don't know if God exists or not, and these self-righteous people need to get their heads out of their asses, wake up and face reality that they're not perfect either, because nobody is.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree with Screaming Turtle and Godzilla. I am an agnostic. I was a Christian for most of my life but, at least for now, I just think we can't fully know whether God exists or not. I am open to returning to Christianity. I am also open to adopting full atheism. But for now, I am comfortable with agnosticism.
What is the point of being agnostic?
It's not a matter of knowing, or not knowing.
It is a matter of believing, or not believing.
I think what leaffan and god-zilla are saying is that they aren't sure as to whether or not they believe in God. Or maybe that's not what they meant; I could have misinterpreted.
Skyla, you are right, at least in my case. I cannot decide. I know that sounds like a copout. I am not at all faithful in the Christian God I grew up believing in. But I am not certain enough that there can be no gods at all to declare myself an atheist. This is not to say that I will not one day return to my faith. I doubt it, but I can never rule out anything. This is not to say I will not become an atheist. Of either of the two, the latter is more probable, but for now I am happy with the results of my so-called faith journey.
what would give you the certainty that there are gods?
I have no such certainty; that is the point.
Leaffan, I think what ok sure is saying is that certainty versus uncertainty doesn't really come into play when determining whether or not you believe in God. As it is impossible to be entirely certain either way, beleif in a god or gods is based soleley on faith.
Skyla, that is correct, I was leading in that direction.
If belief in a god or gods is based solely on faith, what is the non belief in a god, or gods based on?
I think that it would vary from one person to another. for some it is the abbsence of faith, for others it is the presence of reason and inquiry. And glad I could predict the direction you were heading in.
Yes, I know there can never really be certainty when it comes to a belief in God. I guess, when it boils right down to it, that is why I choose agnosticism.
Leaffan, people who do believe in God cannot be certain of its existance either, though.
In reference to the question a few posts above: the non-belief in a god is based on logic and science. --And, in reference to the question that began this board, I am an agnostic who leans towards atheism. My dad is catholic, but does not typically go to church, and my mom is an atheist. I was only taken to church a couple of times growing up, and that was only by my Grandmother. My parents never spoke to me about god.
Skyla, I realize this. However, I think most people who strongly believe in God would declare themselves certain of his existence. I've certainly heard such. But for me personally, this impossibility of being certain either way leads to agnosticism.
Hey Selene. Nice to see another agnostic joining the discussion.
I just had to revive this topic and say that I'm an atheist and have been since the age of 12 or 13. my parents used to go to church before my two little brothers came along; now they don't go as often. I have an uncle in the family who's an atheist, and as of now aside from my live journal friends and now the zone, he's the only one that knows.
hmm. I am ... what am I? I don't know.
My dad was a prodistant, my mom a catholic, although dad never went to church while mom always has. After their divorce, mom converted me to be a catholic.
While I go to church every Sunday (mom otherwise takes my electronics away) and respect the faith, I don't believe in all of it... I'm a mix of all religions.
Instead of believing in a God, I elieve that we are bits and pieces of that one god so we are all essentially God and thus are equal and respected.
Thank god for control end on my keyboard.
That was an interesting way to bring this topic back. However, it brings back Doug V's earlier question about saying "Oh God!" when walking into a door, or other such things. Have you ever noticed how many highly religious people, when hearing this expression, become very offended? This has been my experience anyway.
I am personally not a religious person. However, I respect the beliefs of those who are, and at one point, I went to church and tried to share those beliefs. I just couldn't make it work for me. Here is why:
If we are supposed to believe that God wants us, as humans, to be kind and respectful to each other, why are there so many religious wars? Some would argue that the people we go to war with are from a different religion, and therefore, they are not worthy because they do not believe in the one true "God". Well, I would argue then that in that case, God discriminates against those who do not follow the Christian religion. Many people say prayer works, and this is not just a belief, but an actual fact. When asked why, many have answered that they have prayed for something, and have received it. For example, they prayed that they could choose the appropriate decision in a dilemma. How can you be sure that your choosing the right decision was the work of God, and not due to your own personal inteligence?
I do, however, call myself a spiritual person. I do believe that there is something out there that doesn't choose our path for us, but guides us in choosing our own. In my opinion, however, this is more about nature than God. Now, while you cannot prove that nature is the higher power, you also cannot deny its existence, and its effect on many people. Who can honestly say that they have walked outside to find a very cloudy, cold, and gloomy day, and have not felt some form of disappointment? Or, who can honestly say that they haven't felt happy when opening the window and feeling the warm sun? Though I do strongly believe that nature does play an important role not only in our physical lives, but in our spiritual ones as well, I do not call this a religion. This leads me to my final statement/question:
Is it possible to be spiritual, but not religious? Why or why not?
First, I'd like to say that I haven't read this whole thing, though I find it a very worthwhile topic. There is so much I could say about it, but as is typical of me, I'm short on words and long on things to say.
Anyway, yes, I think it's entirely possible to be spiritual without being religious. I am decidedly atheist myself, even to a point I believe there is sufficient proof that no god exists. It's not possible, neither morally nor logically, yet I believe in inner peace. Like Jess said though, it takes a form of being in tune with nature, or the environment, and not some super natural force.
As a side note, I come from Mississippi, so I was taught all about western mythology probably as soon as I was capable of learning. The trouble is, I never could buy it, and the older I got, the more apparent that became, even if it meant I was part of a very small minority, at least where I grew up. So needless to say, I applaud anyone who isn't content being one of the sheep.
Wow. This has turned into probably the longest post I've ever made, so I'll stop writing , before I ramble on all night.
Lol. It's not nearly as long as some of the posts on here, but well said. Of course, many people are honestly following a religion because they believe it, but here's a question for you: Why do you believe it?
A very good one too. I had a professor once put it this way. Lots of Christians would be very offended in his class when he talked about varying beliefs people had about the existance of god and things of that nature. But he believed that deep down, it wasn't so much they were offended he found holes in Christianity, but more insecure that he might be making them think about something that had always been a tradition for them--things they never had to think about before.
His question for them was this. Even if it opens you up to a new perspective, is there any reason you should stop your lifetime traditions just because of something you've learned? It made me think, because I have been freely able to admit I'm atheist even in the midst of the bible belt. But I still celebrate Christmas with my family; it's tradition, and has very little to do with religion at all, even for the more religious among us.
I love spending Christmas with my family as well as other people I care about. *can't wait for this Christmas*. Anyway, like Lane said, it's a nice tradition to have as a family, no matter how you think of it.
just had to revive this topic, as it's one of my favorites, and I'm proud to say I'm not ashamed of my atheism and almost anyone who knows me, now knows of my beliefs. they don't necessarily agree with them, but they at least see and understand I'm comfortable in my skin.
Will more atheists please share how and why they chose this path? Also would the poster who wrote that there's plenty of proof share some of her/his information? Thanks this is an awesome topic.
Oh, Yeah, I am definitely an atheist. But no I wasn’t always. I was a hard core Christian at one point. After I got myself some true logic I just plain couldn’t believe in it. I was thinking about it before but never truly left. My folks are very religious, and seriously go to church every weekend. It’s almost obsessive. After I turned atheist Sundays have always been hard for me.
What was it that made you decide to be atheist? Did you honestly believe up until that point, or did you always have questions? I'm just curious. When I was a young child, and didn't really know who I was as a person quite yet, I went back and forth, although I could never totally believe in a god. Personally, I don't think it is totally about the evidence that exists either way. There will always be people that will claim to have seen evidence supporting the existence of a God, and others who say they have seen evidence against it. I think it is about what you make of it, and about how well you know the opposition. How can you claim there is no god if you don't know anything about the religion? How can you claim there is a god if you don't know why others believe there is not? There are many misconceptions on both sides of the argument.
like a previous poster, I was raised Christian; growing up, I did everything in my power to convince myself it was the only way to live life. the older I got, though, the more I questioned things on many different levels. I went back and forth about what I believed, but could never truly grasp the concept of God being real. it didn't matter that I went to church with my parents; I knew in my heart it wasn't the right path for me. I had a hard time figuring out whether or not I¡¦d stay Christian, or explore other religions. I decided to explore others, one of which was religions believing mostly in nature and energy. a friend and I talked about what it was like being Wiccan a few times; she even gave me stuff to read pertaining to the Wica religion. I concluded that while I often think similarly as those who practice it, it wasn¡¦t for me. I¡¦ve been an atheist for several years now, and I¡¦m more proud than I can articulate!! ƒº. I came to an educated decision on my own, and I'm an atheist cause it feels right in my heart. I take pride in my freedom to think for myself, live for myself, and do what I know to be right. hope that helps; if you'd like further explanation, let me know and I'll see what I can do.
don't know why some things in that post came out weird...sorry about that.
I'm an athiest. I've tried out several religions too, because I was looking for something, but I never found it in religion. god never chose to speak to me in any way, so I concluded he doesn't exist, and if by some chance he does, he's not the type of god I want to know.
by the way, this belongs in religion topics, I think, because atheism is technically a religion. it's the belief that a god does not or could not exist.
I think the reason it didn't end up there was because of the "friendly chatter" thing. Lol. Although, I have to say that everything said here seems to be very constructive, which I like. Anyway, I digress. Being atheist doesn't necessary mean we say: There is no god. End of story. It just means that we, personally, do not believe in any way that there is, or could be, a god. Our reasons for not believe vary from person to person, as people who do believe in a god have their own reasons. As I understand it, agnosticism takes a more neutral approach, saying, I really don't know or believe either way whether there is or is no God. Correct me if I'm wrong.